(16)
(17)
Q.--Did Alves bring you money every day?
A.--No, not every day. He would only do so when money was sent to him by outsiders.
Q.--Was money sent to him by outsiders every day as a rule?
A.--No, it was not an every day occurrence.
Mr. Thurburn.--Did he carry out the rule when licences were paid? What sort of receipt was given then?
A.--Mr. Carvalho looked after those receipts given for fees received for kerosine licences and &c. The receipt was made out by a Chinese clerk and it was signed by Mr. Carvalho.
Q.--All the licensees?
A. Yes. Mr. Alves had nothing to do with that.
Q.--And the taxes, what happened to them?
A.--They are also looked after by Mr. Carvalho.
Q.--And who signs the receipt?
A.--Mr. E. Carvalho, the son of Mr. J. A. Carvalho.
Q.--He signs the receipts?
A. Yes. At least he did last year. Mr. Mitchell-Innes signs now.
The Chairman.--Did you take your book to be examined, or give an account of what you had received, at the end of the day?
A. Yes, for instance we received say $1,000 on a certain day. A little before the Office closed I added up the amounts and made a total. Then I showed it to Mr. Alves and asked him to compare. If he said it was correct I took the money to the Bank.
Q.--You took it yourself?
A.--Yes.
Q.--You had not to pay out any money? You only had to receive money?
A.--I have nothing to do with payments.
Q.--And every day you should pay into the Bank all you have received that day?
A.--Yes.
Q.--Had you any means of knowing whether Alves paid you over the right amount or not when he brought the money to you?
A. In every case I simply went by the figures that were put down in the receipt. I took no other means of ascertaining.
Q.--But when the money was paid, not by cheque, but by bank notes or coin?
A.--I did not enquire whether the money was the proper amount or not when it was paid.
Mr. Thurburn.--Did you check at the end of the day what money you had got and received with Mr. Carvalho in the same way as you did with Mr. Alves, and then pay the money into the Bank?
A.--Mr. Carvalho has never received any money.
Q.--But you said just now that Mr. Carvalho received the money for the licences?
A. Yes, in the same way as Alves. If Mr. Carvalho received money from outsiders he handed the money and receipt to me.
Q.--And he balanced at the end of the day and you paid it into the Bank?
A.--Yes, I showed the total to Mr. Carvalho and then he sent the money to the Bank.
The Chairman.--Is this a form of receipt for Crown Rent?
(Form produced and identified.)
Q.--When Alves brought any money, did Alves bring in this book (receipt book with counterfoils) or only this receipt form?
A.--Only the receipt--not the book.
Q.--Therefore you did not know whether the counterfoil corresponded with the receipt?
A.--No.
Q.--Whereabouts did Alves use to put the figures?
(Witness indicated the centre of the receipt form.)
Q.--Who made out the slip for the Bank?
A.--The chief clerk, Mr. Carvalho.
Q.--Where did he get the figures from?
A.--From my daily report.
Q.--Did you report to Mr. Carvalho or Mr. Alves?
A.--It was done like this. I made out the amount and then I put on a slip of paper the total, showed the slip to Alves and then went to my co-employé who would report the amount received during the day to Mr. Carvalho for him to make out the slip for the Bank.
Q.--Then you would get the slip and take the money to the Bank?
A. Yes. Mr. Carvalho gave me the slip.
Q.--Can you give us any information as to how Alves was able to take away so much money?
A.--I cannot give any reason.
Q.--You don't know how it was managed?
A.--No.
(Chop produced.)
--That is your chop, is it not?
A. Yes, that is for chopping receipts.
Q.--Whereabouts was Alves' room--anywhere near your room?
A.--No. It is not near my room.
Q.--People could go to Alves and hand over money to him and you would not see it?
A. No, I should not. His room is not entered from my room.
The Commission adjourned until Thursday, March 2nd, at 11.30 a.m.
675
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(17)
Q.--Did Alves bring you money every day?
A.-No, not every day. outsiders.
He would only do so when money was sent to him by
Q.-Was
as money sent to him by outsiders every day as a rule ?
A.-No, it was not an every day occurrence.
Mr. Thurburn.--Did he carry out the rule when licences were paid? What sort of receipt was given then?
A.--Mr. Carvalho looked after those receipts given for fees received for kerosine licences and &c. The receipt was made out by a Chinese clerk and it was signed by Mr. Carvalho.
Q.--All the licenees?
A. Yes. Mr. Alves had nothing to do with that.
Q.--And the taxes, what happened to them?
A.-They are also looked after by Mr. Carvalho.
Q.--And who signs the receipt?
A.-Mr. E. Carvalho, the son of Mr. J. A. Carvalho.
Q.-lle signs the receipts?
A. Yes. At least he did last year.
Mr. Mitchell-Innes signs now.
The Chairman.-Did you take your book to be examined, or give an account of what you had received, at the end of the day?
A. Yes, for instance we received say $1,000 on a certain day. A little before the Office closed I added up the amounts and made a total. Then I showed it to Mr. Alves and askedhim to compare. If he said it was correct I took the mouey to the
Bank.
Q.-You took it yourself?
4.- Yes.
Q.-You had not to pay out any money?
You only had to receive money?
A.I have nothing to do with payments.
-And every day you should pay into the Bank all you have received that day? A. --Yes.
Q-Had you any means of knowing whether Alves paid you over the right amount or not when he brought the money to you?
A. In every case I simply went by the figures that were put down in the receipt. I took no other means of ascertaining.
Q-But when the money was paid, not by cheque, but by bank notes or coin? A.-I did not enquire whether the money was the proper amount or not when it was paid.
Mr. Thurburn. Did you check at the end of the day what money you had got and received with Mr. Carvalho in the same way as you did with Mr. Alves, and then pay the money into the Bank ?
A.--Mr. Carvalho has never received any money.
Q.--But
you said just now that Mr. Carvalho received the money for the licences?
A. Yes, in the same way as Alves. If Mr. Carvalho received money from out- siders he handed the money and receipt to me.
Bank.
Q.--And he balanced at the end of the day and you paid it into the Bank?
A-Yes, I showed the total to Mr. Carvalho and then he sent the money to the
The Chairman.-Is this a form of receipt for Crown Rent?
(Form produced and identified.)
Q.--When Alves brought any money, did Alves bring in this book (receipt book with counterfoils) or only this receipt form?
A.--Only the receipt-not the book.
Q.-Therefore you did not know whether the counterfoil corresponded with the
receipt?
A.-No.
Q. Whereabouts did Alves use to put the figures.
(Witness indicated the centre of the receipt form.)
Q.-Who made out the slip for the Bank ?
A.-The chief clerk, Mr. Carvalho.
Q. Where did he get the figures from ?
A.--From my fokës report.
QDid you report to Mr. Carvalho or Mr. Alves?
A.-It was done like this. I made out the amount and then I put on a slip of paper
the total, showed the slip to Alves and then went to my co-employé who would report the amount received during the day to Mr. Carvalho for him to make out the slip for the Bank.
Q.- Then you would get the slip and take the money to the Bank?
A. Yes. Mr. Carvalho gave me the slip.
Q.--Can you give us any inforutation as to how Alves was able to take away so much money?
A.-I cannot give any reason.
Q.-You don't know how it was managed?
A.-No.
(Chop produced.)
-That is your chop, is it not?
A. Yes, that is for chopping receipts.
Q.
---Whereabouts was Alves' room--anywhere near your rooni ?
A.No. It is not near my room.
Q-People could go to Alves and hand over money to him and you would not
see it ?
A. No, I should not.
His room is not entered from my room.
The Commission adjourned until Thursday, March 2nd, at 11.30 a..
675
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